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	<title>Comments for Emergent Chaos</title>
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	<link>http://emergentchaos.com</link>
	<description>The Emergent Chaos Jazz Combo</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:05:27 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on It&#8217;s a Lie: Seattle Taxpayers Will Pay for a Staduim by Adam</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/02/its-a-lie-seattle-taxpayers-will-pay-for-a-staduim.html/comment-page-1#comment-9505</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4104#comment-9505</guid>
		<description>The contradicted claim is that taxpayers won&#039;t be obligated to absorb losses.  If the taxpayers (or our agents) issue bonds, then the taxpayers are liable for them.

As to the investor&#039;s logic, you&#039;re correct.  However, Seattle voters have repeatedly voted against spending money on stadiums.  We even have a delightfully named lobbying group: Citizens for More Important Things.  (http://www.citizensformoreimportantthings.org/)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The contradicted claim is that taxpayers won&#8217;t be obligated to absorb losses.  If the taxpayers (or our agents) issue bonds, then the taxpayers are liable for them.</p>
<p>As to the investor&#8217;s logic, you&#8217;re correct.  However, Seattle voters have repeatedly voted against spending money on stadiums.  We even have a delightfully named lobbying group: Citizens for More Important Things.  (<a href="http://www.citizensformoreimportantthings.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.citizensformoreimportantthings.org/</a>)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Help Find the People Who Killed Ulf M&#246;ller by Weißes Pulver: Drohbrief für Melchior Wathelet &#171; Autonome DEUTSCHE in Eupen Malmedy Kelmis</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/02/help-find-the-people-who-killed-ulf-mller.html/comment-page-1#comment-9503</link>
		<dc:creator>Weißes Pulver: Drohbrief für Melchior Wathelet &#171; Autonome DEUTSCHE in Eupen Malmedy Kelmis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4108#comment-9503</guid>
		<description>[...] Help Find the People Who Killed Ulf Möller (emergentchaos.com) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Help Find the People Who Killed Ulf Möller (emergentchaos.com) [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on It&#8217;s a Lie: Seattle Taxpayers Will Pay for a Staduim by cc</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/02/its-a-lie-seattle-taxpayers-will-pay-for-a-staduim.html/comment-page-1#comment-9501</link>
		<dc:creator>cc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4104#comment-9501</guid>
		<description>@nicko - You probably have a lot in common with most King County taxpayers in the sense you &quot;don&#039;t know anything about the sports concerned&quot; and &quot;have no idea if the stadium is a good idea or not.&quot;    

And that is why simply maintaining a level playing field where free enterprise is allowed and everyone can play by the same set of rules is the best strategy. If we don&#039;t start gambling public funds on sports teams we won&#039;t risk losing them. 

What you described in other cities is a playing field in which corrupted elected officials allow politically connected individuals and corporations to masquerade as free market capitalists.  In reality the politicians and the cronies have created a second set of rules for themselves, called &quot;heads I win, tails you lose.&quot;  Invest public money, and if the investment succeeds, they take the profits.  If the investment fails, the taxpayer absorbs the loss.  

In the long run, are huge corporate welfare packages and bailouts that disproportionately benefit the politically connected the mark of a free country?  No.  Definitely not.  There&#039;s no reason we have to compete to be the city who is most willing to abuse our own taxing authority, eminent domain, etc. to attract a sports team.  That&#039;s not progress. That&#039;s not liberty.  That&#039;s stupidity.

I don&#039;t want to be the sucker who&#039;s paying for a failed deal either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@nicko &#8211; You probably have a lot in common with most King County taxpayers in the sense you &#8220;don&#8217;t know anything about the sports concerned&#8221; and &#8220;have no idea if the stadium is a good idea or not.&#8221;    </p>
<p>And that is why simply maintaining a level playing field where free enterprise is allowed and everyone can play by the same set of rules is the best strategy. If we don&#8217;t start gambling public funds on sports teams we won&#8217;t risk losing them. </p>
<p>What you described in other cities is a playing field in which corrupted elected officials allow politically connected individuals and corporations to masquerade as free market capitalists.  In reality the politicians and the cronies have created a second set of rules for themselves, called &#8220;heads I win, tails you lose.&#8221;  Invest public money, and if the investment succeeds, they take the profits.  If the investment fails, the taxpayer absorbs the loss.  </p>
<p>In the long run, are huge corporate welfare packages and bailouts that disproportionately benefit the politically connected the mark of a free country?  No.  Definitely not.  There&#8217;s no reason we have to compete to be the city who is most willing to abuse our own taxing authority, eminent domain, etc. to attract a sports team.  That&#8217;s not progress. That&#8217;s not liberty.  That&#8217;s stupidity.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to be the sucker who&#8217;s paying for a failed deal either.</p>
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		<title>Comment on It&#8217;s a Lie: Seattle Taxpayers Will Pay for a Staduim by Nicko</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/02/its-a-lie-seattle-taxpayers-will-pay-for-a-staduim.html/comment-page-1#comment-9500</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2012 17:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4104#comment-9500</guid>
		<description>Those first two quotes don&#039;t seem to be at odds with each other. The first statement says &quot;without the aid of &lt;b&gt;new&lt;/b&gt; taxes&quot;, and the second statement says that the bonds would be paid back through lease payments and (presumably sales) taxes on the ticket and concession sales, which presumably won&#039;t happen unless the stadium is built. If the existing tax applied to the expected increase in sales activity makes up the difference between the lease payments and the bond repayments then no new taxes will be needed.

As for your suggestion that the backers see this as a risky proposition, let me offer an alternative explanation. If there are multiple cities that they might invest in, and those cities are all keen to have the extra economic activity that the investment is expected to bring, then they are going to ask those cities to compete to offer the best deal to get the project into their city. If I think my investment is a sure thing then it&#039;s an even better investment with $200M of someone else&#039;s money and given a choice between a city with cheap loans and a city without, it would be an easy decisions for any investor.

I have no idea if the stadium is a good idea or not; I don&#039;t know anything about the sports concerned or your local teams. That said, I think your analysis is a little disingenuous. There have been many, many cases where local governments have underwritten private projects to build infrastructure that was expected to increase local economic activity and had great success; this seems to be exactly that sort of situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those first two quotes don&#8217;t seem to be at odds with each other. The first statement says &#8220;without the aid of <b>new</b> taxes&#8221;, and the second statement says that the bonds would be paid back through lease payments and (presumably sales) taxes on the ticket and concession sales, which presumably won&#8217;t happen unless the stadium is built. If the existing tax applied to the expected increase in sales activity makes up the difference between the lease payments and the bond repayments then no new taxes will be needed.</p>
<p>As for your suggestion that the backers see this as a risky proposition, let me offer an alternative explanation. If there are multiple cities that they might invest in, and those cities are all keen to have the extra economic activity that the investment is expected to bring, then they are going to ask those cities to compete to offer the best deal to get the project into their city. If I think my investment is a sure thing then it&#8217;s an even better investment with $200M of someone else&#8217;s money and given a choice between a city with cheap loans and a city without, it would be an easy decisions for any investor.</p>
<p>I have no idea if the stadium is a good idea or not; I don&#8217;t know anything about the sports concerned or your local teams. That said, I think your analysis is a little disingenuous. There have been many, many cases where local governments have underwritten private projects to build infrastructure that was expected to increase local economic activity and had great success; this seems to be exactly that sort of situation.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Google+ Failed Because of Real Names by Anon4fun</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/01/google-failed-because-of-real-names.html/comment-page-1#comment-9446</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon4fun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 19:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4059#comment-9446</guid>
		<description>&quot;There&#039;s a lot that Google gets right in Google+, most notably the idea of circles.&quot;

There&#039;s a lot that date rapists get right, most notably free dinner.

&quot;Google has put their desire to have a real-name driven internet ahead of their user&#039;s desires.&quot;

This wasn&#039;t their original idea, of course. It&#039;s a government initiative. See NSTIC, etc.

&quot;…bastards are still bastards under their own names.&quot;

And trolls are still trolls under the multiple fake real names they use on the disposable accounts they set up for trolling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There&#8217;s a lot that Google gets right in Google+, most notably the idea of circles.&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot that date rapists get right, most notably free dinner.</p>
<p>&#8220;Google has put their desire to have a real-name driven internet ahead of their user&#8217;s desires.&#8221;</p>
<p>This wasn&#8217;t their original idea, of course. It&#8217;s a government initiative. See NSTIC, etc.</p>
<p>&#8220;…bastards are still bastards under their own names.&#8221;</p>
<p>And trolls are still trolls under the multiple fake real names they use on the disposable accounts they set up for trolling.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Yes, Google+ Is a Failure by Adam</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/01/yes-google-is-a-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-9441</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4074#comment-9441</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jon!  As an aside, that link expands to https://plus.google.com/u/0/115324919838980591640/posts/RRb3jHEY4YQ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jon!  As an aside, that link expands to <a href="https://plus.google.com/u/0/115324919838980591640/posts/RRb3jHEY4YQ" rel="nofollow">https://plus.google.com/u/0/115324919838980591640/posts/RRb3jHEY4YQ</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Yes, Google+ Is a Failure by David Gerard</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/01/yes-google-is-a-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-9440</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gerard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4074#comment-9440</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s reasonably clear that Google are willing to throw money as it takes at this pig to get it to fly. Did Facebook ever run ads in print or on the Tube trying to convince office workers they could bitch about their boss without getting caught? G+ has. At that point, it&#039;s a question of whether it turns a profit. It&#039;s clearly not the organic success Facebook was, but this may not matter if they keep promoting it as hard as they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s reasonably clear that Google are willing to throw money as it takes at this pig to get it to fly. Did Facebook ever run ads in print or on the Tube trying to convince office workers they could bitch about their boss without getting caught? G+ has. At that point, it&#8217;s a question of whether it turns a profit. It&#8217;s clearly not the organic success Facebook was, but this may not matter if they keep promoting it as hard as they are.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Yes, Google+ Is a Failure by jon</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/01/yes-google-is-a-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-9439</link>
		<dc:creator>jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4074#comment-9439</guid>
		<description>Resist totalizing narratives!  It seems to me that it&#039;s still too early to know whether or not G+ is a success or failure, and the answer won&#039;t be unambiguous.  Here&#039;s what I wrote in a discussion of your last post on G+:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I also think &quot;failed&quot; is an overstatement. From an engineering perspective it looks like a huge success, moving all their properties onto a very solid new platform built around an &quot;identity system&quot; that&#039;s optimized for sharing data about users with advertisers and governments. By making G+ the default on new Android and gmail signups, advertising heavily, using their dominant position in search to favor G+ posts and pressure web sites to install +1 buttons, Google&#039;s continuing to get signups for the system. As for usage and engagement, if you like Google&#039;s redefinition &quot;using G+&quot; to include searching (or checking gmail) (or reader or any other Google property) then the numbers are ok; if not, it looks like a very low adoption rate. I&#039;m working on a blog post on this and so far my conclusion is &quot;reasonable minds differ&quot;.

That said I basically agree with Adam&#039;s thesis here.  There was a good discussion of this back in November at htto://goo.gl/VVopJ ... once again, reasonable minds differ, but I know what I think :) Google+&#039;s unnecessary insistence on their unpopular, expensive, contentious naming policy and the resulting unpleasantness of the nymwars blunted their initial growth. They lost their a great chance to take significant market share away from Facebook and Twitter with a spectacular launch. Yes, there&#039;s been progress since but it was a huge blunder and it was based on an incorrect assumption and not listening to the hundreds of people who said &quot;hey wait a second&quot;. Oops.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

l</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Resist totalizing narratives!  It seems to me that it&#8217;s still too early to know whether or not G+ is a success or failure, and the answer won&#8217;t be unambiguous.  Here&#8217;s what I wrote in a discussion of your last post on G+:</p>
<blockquote><p>I also think &#8220;failed&#8221; is an overstatement. From an engineering perspective it looks like a huge success, moving all their properties onto a very solid new platform built around an &#8220;identity system&#8221; that&#8217;s optimized for sharing data about users with advertisers and governments. By making G+ the default on new Android and gmail signups, advertising heavily, using their dominant position in search to favor G+ posts and pressure web sites to install +1 buttons, Google&#8217;s continuing to get signups for the system. As for usage and engagement, if you like Google&#8217;s redefinition &#8220;using G+&#8221; to include searching (or checking gmail) (or reader or any other Google property) then the numbers are ok; if not, it looks like a very low adoption rate. I&#8217;m working on a blog post on this and so far my conclusion is &#8220;reasonable minds differ&#8221;.</p>
<p>That said I basically agree with Adam&#8217;s thesis here.  There was a good discussion of this back in November at htto://goo.gl/VVopJ &#8230; once again, reasonable minds differ, but I know what I think :) Google+&#8217;s unnecessary insistence on their unpopular, expensive, contentious naming policy and the resulting unpleasantness of the nymwars blunted their initial growth. They lost their a great chance to take significant market share away from Facebook and Twitter with a spectacular launch. Yes, there&#8217;s been progress since but it was a huge blunder and it was based on an incorrect assumption and not listening to the hundreds of people who said &#8220;hey wait a second&#8221;. Oops.</p></blockquote>
<p>l</p>
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		<title>Comment on Yes, Google+ Is a Failure by marquisem</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/01/yes-google-is-a-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-9438</link>
		<dc:creator>marquisem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4074#comment-9438</guid>
		<description>Even if Google+ weren&#039;t a failure, their recent &quot;one identity to sell to advertisers&quot;, I mean, their &quot;one privacy policy to make your life simple&quot; may make some people reconsider moving.  I realize that as a professional geek, I care more about that than the average bear.  But I have different email addresses for a reason.  I have different online personas that I accentuate or use less commonly AS I CHOOSE.  And if using Google products means I don&#039;t get that choice, well, then my choice means less Google.  Can I use Maps and Search anonymously?  Sure.  I can also use MapQuest and Startpage just as easily.  And I will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if Google+ weren&#8217;t a failure, their recent &#8220;one identity to sell to advertisers&#8221;, I mean, their &#8220;one privacy policy to make your life simple&#8221; may make some people reconsider moving.  I realize that as a professional geek, I care more about that than the average bear.  But I have different email addresses for a reason.  I have different online personas that I accentuate or use less commonly AS I CHOOSE.  And if using Google products means I don&#8217;t get that choice, well, then my choice means less Google.  Can I use Maps and Search anonymously?  Sure.  I can also use MapQuest and Startpage just as easily.  And I will.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Google+ Failed Because of Real Names by LonerVamp</title>
		<link>http://emergentchaos.com/archives/2012/01/google-failed-because-of-real-names.html/comment-page-1#comment-9437</link>
		<dc:creator>LonerVamp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emergentchaos.com/?p=4059#comment-9437</guid>
		<description>Completely agree, and I could have (and did) say as much the moment I heard about this policy. It kept me off (not surprising considering how I&#039;m even signing this comment), and certainly would keep others off.  +1 to what Moribund Cadaver said as well, G+ pissed off the tech early adopters, which isn&#039;t going to work. I won&#039;t agree, however, that G+ was what pulled off the mask. Instead, this happened when Google went public and become beholden to other people rather than itself and customers.

The whole idea about making people be identified with their real names to limit the number of &quot;bastards&quot; or internet trolls was a thin masking for what I feel is the real reason: advertising aka money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Completely agree, and I could have (and did) say as much the moment I heard about this policy. It kept me off (not surprising considering how I&#8217;m even signing this comment), and certainly would keep others off.  +1 to what Moribund Cadaver said as well, G+ pissed off the tech early adopters, which isn&#8217;t going to work. I won&#8217;t agree, however, that G+ was what pulled off the mask. Instead, this happened when Google went public and become beholden to other people rather than itself and customers.</p>
<p>The whole idea about making people be identified with their real names to limit the number of &#8220;bastards&#8221; or internet trolls was a thin masking for what I feel is the real reason: advertising aka money.</p>
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